The Thomas Jefferson Hour

Clay talks with eminent historian Joseph Ellis, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of over a dozen books. Today’s question? Were we ever a republic, and are we now a republic? What did the Founding Fathers mean when they created the American republic? How is a republic different from a democracy? Was Jefferson’s small-r republican idealism realistic? Or was he, as John Adams reckoned, a beautiful but naïve dreamer? When did we cease to be a republic, or are we, in some limited sense, still a republic in 2024? How does the election of 2024 matter from this perspective?

Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay about Phase II of his 2024 Travels with Charley tour. What has Clay learned from retracing Steinbeck's famous 1960 cross-country journey? This time from Bismarck to Seattle, then Monterey, Salinas, and Route 66. Clay describes a few mishaps that have occurred. Plus, a visit to the Sylvia Beach literary hotel in Oregon, the annual Lewis and Clark Cultural Tour, the magnificence of the American continent, and people's reluctance to discuss our paralytic political situation. Finally, the lingering question: uncovering the best gumbo in America? 

Clay Jenkinson’s interview with adventurer Alan Mallory about his family’s ascent of Mount Everest. That’s 29,032 feet, a third of it in the Death Zone, where your body actually starts to die from lack of oxygen and other factors. Mallory walks us through the process—getting to Nepal, the cost, the outfitters, the journey to base camp, where you stay to adjust to the altitude, and then the slow, steady, and exhausting climb through four camps before attempting the summit. On the basis of his book, The Family that Conquered Everest, Mallory has a vibrant career as a motivational speaker. At the end he shares his adventures are ahead.

Clay interviews regular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky about her new book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic. It’s a wonderfully readable study of the one-term presidency of John Adams. Lindsay sheds new light on some of the most interesting moments of the Adams presidency and examines the first peaceful transfer of power in American political history and the second when Thomas Jefferson displaced Adams in the election of 1800. The book provides fascinating insights into the people and events that set the future trajectory of the great American experiment.

Clay Jenkinson converses with historian Larry Skogen about his new book, To Educate American Indians. Skogen’s book examines US policy of assimilating Native Americans into European-derived white America, including the nightmare of the Indian Boarding Schools, personified by Carlisle Indian School’s superintendent Richard Pratt’s racist mission statement: “Kill the Indian, Save the Man.” One of the fascinations of this subject is that so many of the white people engaged in coercive assimilation were, at least in their own minds, “philanthropists,” who believed they were doing the right thing. Embedded in the assimilation movement of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century was what is called “scientific racism,” the view that Anglo Saxon white people were the acme of world civilization and all others were lower on the scale of civilization, accomplishment, and even capacity. It’s an important and at times chilling subject, and Larry Skogen is one of the nation’s premier historians of these policies.

Clay interviews former NPR CEO Ken Stern, author of a provocative 2018 book, Republican Like Me: How I Left the Liberal Bubble and Learned to Love the Right. Weary of living in a liberal cosmos that found the other side “deplorable,” Ken traveled America to experience rituals that many associate with the political Right. He hunted a pig in Texas, visited evangelical churches, went to a NASCAR race, and spent time with the philosopher of Trumpism, Steve Bannon. Clay asks why Ken did it, what he learned, and how his views of America changed. 

Clay talks with Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky about her just-published book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic. Lindsay explores how, in the nation's early days, John Adams and others pioneered a framework for the American presidency that we now take for granted. One example: The U.S. Constitution was largely silent about the peaceful transfer of power. Chervinsky notes the country was filled with anxiety to see George Washington retire and observe the transfer of power, a new and revolutionary feature of political life.   

Historian Lindsay Chervinsky talks with Clay about the enemies of the second president of the United States, John Adams. Somewhat tongue in cheek, Lindsay believes that Jefferson was one of those enemies because he was a disloyal vice president to Adams. Others included Alexander Hamilton, who considered himself the shadow president. Hamilton also wrote that notorious pamphlet in 1800, asserting that he regarded Adams as unfit for re-election. Lindsay also says Abigail Adams was one of the greatest first ladies in American history and a co-president in limited respects.

Skidmore College political scientist Beau Breslin joins Clay to discuss how America might prepare for its 250th birthday on July 4, 2026. Topics include the collapse of civility and mutual respect and the breakdown of respect for American institutions, from the Supreme Court and the FBI to the media and the church. They discuss the possibility of a new constitutional convention as a way of commemorating America’s 250th anniversary. They also examine what Clay is discovering about the country’s mood as he follows John Steinbeck’s 1960 Travels with Charley journey.

Eminent historian Joseph Ellis returns to Listening to America to assess the country’s current political climate. Ellis, now in retirement in the mountains of Vermont, is the author of more than a dozen books, including biographical treatments of Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, and others. He believes that the election of November 2024 is the second most important election of American history and the single most important election of his lifetime. He urges all Americans to step back and think hard about where we are and where we may be heading. Ellis and Jenkinson turn to the mission statement of the Founding Fathers, Jefferson’s famous 35 words beginning with We hold these truths to be self-evident, and the Constitution’s preamble which commits America to the perpetual struggle to create a more perfect union. They also discuss the vision, character, and achievement of Thomas Jefferson and whether he is truly the apostle of armed resistance in American life.

Clay welcomes regular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky for a conversation about the First Amendment, ratified with nine others on December 15, 1792. The First Amendment lists four protected American rights:  1) Freedom of Religion, 2) Freedom of Speech and the Press, 3) Freedom of Assembly, 4) Freedom to Petition the government for redress of grievances. James Madison drafted the Bill of Rights to appease the demands of the American people, who wanted a charter of human rights at the center of the new Constitution. Madison's 45 words are among the most important in human history. What do we mean by the "establishment of religion"? Why did the Founding Fathers feel so strongly about First Amendment rights? Are there limits to freedom of expression, and who gets to decide? How well is the First Amendment holding up in the courts today, and what can we expect in the next few years?

Dr. Cassandra Newby-Alexander of Norfolk State University in Virginia joins Clay Jenkinson to discuss unresolved race issues in the United States. Dr. Newby-Alexander is the author of an important book, Virginia Waterways and the Underground Railroad. During the 18th and 19th centuries more than 100,000 enslaved people found their way to freedom in Canada via the Underground Railroad, many of them taking advantage of the myriad of inland waterways in the eastern half of the US. The Underground Railroad was not a single path from southern states to Canada, where slavery was illegal. It was a complex and exceedingly dangerous network of land routes, water passages, safe houses, secret insignia, always just a step or two ahead of the slave catchers and kidnappers who were complicit in the perpetuation of slavery in America.

Richard Rhodes, noted historian and author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Making of the Atomic Bomb, returns to Listening to America for another discussion reflecting on America as it approaches its 250th birthday. In this poignant conversation, Mr. Rhodes and Clay discuss gun violence in America. Are humans inherently violent? What is the cause of the dramatic rise in mass shootings in the United States? Assuming that the Second Amendment is unshakable, are there things we can do to prevent or bring down the rate of gun violence in American life? Rhodes’ conclusions are simple and stark. We are not different from other developed countries except in one crucial way.

Clay interviews the eminent historian Richard Slotkin about America as it approaches its 250th birthday. Richard Slotkin is an emeritus professor of history at Wesleyan University in Connecticut. He is the author of many books, including two groundbreaking studies of violence on the American frontier. His latest book, A Great Disorder: National Myth and the Battle for America, attempts to place the current crisis in the basic narratives of American history: the myth of the Founders, frontier myths, the myths surrounding the Civil War and World War II; and the myth of American exceptionalism. As we approach our 250th birthday, can America find a way to craft a new consensus narrative of who we are and where we are headed? Or are we doomed to disintegrate into two or more Americas that see the other side as evil or un-American?

Clay Jenkinson’s conversation with regular guest Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky about the penman of the U.S. Constitution, Gouverneur Morris of New York. Morris and Thomas Jefferson knew each other in France but couldn’t really get along. Morris was Alexander Hamilton’s best friend and after the 1804 duel that ended Hamilton’s life, Morris agreed to look after his widow and young children, and he gave a superb eulogy for Hamilton, whom he admitted was a monarchist. We are also joined by novelist Rebecca Flynt, who is finishing up a book about Nancy Randolph, who was involved first in the most notorious sex scandal of the era at a plantation aptly named Bizarre, but later, destitute in New York, drew Gouverneur Morris’ attention first as his housekeeper and then his wife. It’s all intriguing, scandalous, and well, bizarre.

Guest host David Horton of Radford University and Clay Jenkinson discuss the origins and varieties of satire. With its roots in the ancient world and particularly Rome, satire exists in two broad categories: genial, bemused satire, identified with the Roman poet Horace; and biting, severe, take-no-prisoners satire best represented by another Roman poet Juvenal. The discussion explores satire in American history; Thomas Jefferson’s humorlessness and his immunity to satire; classical American satirists such as Mark Twain and Will Rogers; and satire of the modern age with Johnny Carson, Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert, and Garrison Keillor. David and Clay reflect on the silo effect and media echo chambers of our time, which have made it nearly impossible for all to meet in some form of the public square to laugh at human foibles and find ways to tolerate each other. 

Guest Host David Horton of Radford University in Virginia asks Clay for a progress report on his adventure retracing John Steinbeck’s “Travels with Charley” journey. Clay was in Middlebury, Vermont, at the time of the interview, still aglow from his interview with Steinbeck biographer Jay Parini of Middlebury College. Topics include the clunky joys of rural AM radio; whether it matters that not everything in Travels with Charley happened precisely as Steinbeck reports; and what Clay is learning along the way. They discuss the changes in America’s highways between 1960 and today, including the Blue Highways far away from the Interstate Highway System. Clay talks about some of the other pilgrimages he has made so far in the journey: Jack Kerouac’s grave in Lowell, Massachusetts; Thoreau’s Walden Pond; and Montauk Point at the end of Long Island where Theodore Roosevelt and his Rough Riders quarantined after their heroics in Cuba.

Guest host Russ Eagle and Clay Jenkinson talk about Listening to America’s “Travels with Charley” journey so far. At the time of this conversation, Clay was beginning his third week on the road, recording from Bar Harbor, Maine, just outside Acadia National Park. They discuss Clay’s visit to Sag Harbor, Steinbeck’s home out on the tip of Long Island; and the three-ferry journey from Long Island to New London, Connecticut. Clay recounted some of the side excursions so far, including a trip to Big Bone Lick, Kentucky, to Jack Kerouac’s grave in Lowell, Massachusetts, and a pilgrimage to Walden Pond, the home of Henry David Thoreau, Clay’s nominee for the writer of America’s most important book.

Clay Jenkinson interviews Pulitzer Prize winning historian Richard Rhodes, the author of 23 books including The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Topics include Rhodes' path to one of the most productive and acclaimed writing careers in recent American history; the strengths and weaknesses of Christopher Nolan's film Oppenheimer; the time Edward Teller abruptly stopped an interview and asked Rhodes to leave; the current status of the Doomsday Clock that tells us how close we are to nuclear war; and what's next in the illustrious career of the much awarded and universally celebrated author. 

Clay Jenkinson and special guest host Russ Eagle discuss the first days of Listening to America’s Travels with Charley Tour. Clay reports from a campground near Cedar Rapids, Iowa en route to Sag Harbor out on the end of Long Island, New York, to touch base with Steinbeck’s starting point for his 1960 journey through America. Clay recounts his wrestling match with an uncooperative bike rack, and other details of getting underway on a twenty-week odyssey around the perimeter of the United States. Russ and Clay talk about Steinbeck’s state of mind—and declining health—as he set out in late September 1960, and the ways in which Steinbeck shaped his book Travels with Charley as a literary masterpiece and not just a dry reporting of verifiable road facts. They discuss the place of Travels with Charley in the larger trajectory of Steinbeck’s amazing career, and the places Clay will visit on his way to Long Island.