Let Us Reason - A Christian/muslim Dialogue

The Sana manuscripts is a palimpsest manuscripts ; which means that there is a lower and upper layers of writing . Scholars say that the two writings are late seventh and early eighth century respectively.  They think that it is two versions of the Quran; the first is a pre- standard Quran which was erased and rewritten as the canonical version.  On comparing the two writing , it was found that there are seventy variants between the two.  Dr Jay says that the lower text was erased because it needed to be updated.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Sana'a manuscript was discovered in Yemen in 1975, it is very old with no dots and vowels.  It is a palimpsest (It has two layers of writings). It had late 7th to 8th century scripts.  It was carbon tested at the university of Arizona in 2007, and was dated to mid 7th century. The same segment was taken to four Europeans labs and they did not agree with the Arizona dating.  Shoemaker concludes that there is a problem with the carbon dating because the process dates the skin of the animal not the time the writing was written.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss the challenges of carbon dating of manuscripts.  They say that carbon dating gives the age of the material that is written on not the ink.  There is no method found that dates ink because the way ink is mixed to make colors.  Animal skin is costly and it takes time to cure.  Shoemaker argues that carbon dating is not entirely accurate .  That is why scholars had to look at the paleography of the writing which help determine the style of writing and in turn the time it was written.  Shoemaker conclude that the carbon dating supports the Abd Al Malik/ Al Hajaj timing. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue to talk about three more major qur'anic manuscripts :4. The BNF/ Petropolitanus manuscripts, and it has three fragments, the largest fragment is 26% of the Quran of today (Hafs). 5. Al Husseini manuscripts in Egypt.  It is very large, and has a lot of taping over words.  6. The Sana manuscripts. It is most recent discovery,  1975 in Yemen.  In conclusion;the six major manuscripts are: Not from the 7th century, none of them are complete, they don't agree with each other or with the1924 Hafs Quran of today, and all have a lot of variants.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today Al Fadi and Dr Jay talk about  three Quranic manuscripts:  1. The Topkapi Manuscripts: it is kept in the Topkapi palace museum in Istanbul, Turkey. It is dated to early to mid 8th century due to the presence of vowels and dots.  It is not the private copy of Utthman or one of the copies that he sent to various centers. 2. The Samarkand Manuscript, found in Tashkent, Uzbekistan; it is not a complete manuscript(43 Soras only). It is lazy man manuscript, and was written by scribes who didn't know Arabic .  3. Al Ma'il (slanted) Manuscripts, found in the British museum, and has no vowels or dots which makes it an earlier manuscripts. It is dated to early 8th century.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue discussing Shoemaker's book; Creating the Quran.   Today they are wondering what happened to the Al Hajjaj- Abd Al Malik paradigm. They are not convinced with Shoemaker's answer, but they think it is a political reason since Abd Al Malik is an Umayyad , and the Abbasid came after them.  They continue to talk about another scholar Robert Hoyland who said that none of the previous religions in the seventh century has heard of a book called the Quran.  Then they conclude that the strongest arguments for a later Quran is the manuscripts evidence which they are going to discuss in details in later episodes.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay  continue to discuss the book creating the Quran. Today the focus on    1. The dialogue of Abraham of Tiberias, a Christian, with Amir Abdul Al Rahman Al Hashemi, in Jerusalem in the 9th century, during the Abbasid period,mentioning that Al Hajjaj produced the final authoritative version of the Quran. 2. The Apology of Al Kindy, is another Christin work written during the 9th century that talks about Al Hajaj; under Abd Al Malik; made a substantial changes to the Quran.  Abd Al Malik was an Umayyad  Caliph  during the 8th century who built the Dome of the Rock and Arabized the Quran . See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss the book written by Daniel Janosik, John of Damascus; The First Apologists to the Muslims.  John of Damascus is a Christian monk and apologist whose father served in the Umayyad Caliphate  in Damascus.  John does not use the word Islam, but instead he calls it the heresy of the Ishmaelites. Al and Jay also talk about Emperor Leo the third correspondent letters with Omar the Second.  Both John and Leo indicate that the Quran we have today is different than the Quran in the 7th and 8th centuries.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This paradigm focuses on the Umayyad caliphate in particular Abd Al- Malik bin Marwan and his governor Al Hajjaj.  Abd Al Malik built the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and was anti trinitarian. He attacked the trinity, the divinity and the sonship of Christ.  Al Hajjaj formed a committee  to produce a new collection of the Quran. Dr Jay Smith gives the 12 reasons from Shoemaker's book; creating the Quran, why he believes that a later Quranic creation of the Quran is done by Abd Al Malik and Al Hajjaj.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Noldeke/Schwallian Paradime  states that the Uthmanic Quran is the standard Quran and does not question it .  In this episode Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss some scholars that say otherwise.  They are discussing Steven Shoemaker book; Creating the Quran.  They conclude that the Quran ascribed to Uthuman was really established by Abd Al Malik which they will discuss in a coming episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi Dr Jay discuss what the two German scholars say about the Quran. Noldeke and Schwallie say that the Quran was written in 652 AD in its entirety of 114 Suras, and it should not be criticized.  Al Fadi and Dr Jay going back to Shoemaker's book; creating the Quran discuss ten different possibilities of who really wrote the Uthmanic Quran.  Abu Bakir, Omar, Aisha, just to name a few.  Al Fadi and Dr jay make a plea to Muslim to check their claims of the perfect preservation of the Quran in light of what Shoemaker says for the purpose of finding the truth. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay Smith discuss what the Muslim leaders of early centuries of Islam and what Muslim leaders of today say about the Preservation of the Quran.  Today's leaders including Shabir Ali, Abdula Yusef Ali, and Yasir Qadi, to name a few, claim the perfect preservation of the Quran; They say that today's Quran is the same exact Quran of Othman days to the letter.  Going back to the first centuries of Islam ; Muslims did not claim that at all; in fact substitution (abrogation) was normal. Some of the early leaders that said that are Bukhari, Ibn Abi Dawood, Aisha, just to name a few.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay raise more questions about the origin of the Quran which create more problems about the Quran: 6. How can you have a dialectic problem in the mid 7th century unless you have a written text? 7.Why did Othman burn the other copies? 8. How can you burn a dialect? 9. If the Quran that Othman asked Zaid ibn Thabit to write in the Qurashi dialect was the second compilation of the Quran, why do we have 37 different Qurans today? They conclude that tradition says that Othman sent five copies to five cities/provinces, yet Muslims can not come with a manuscript from the five copies of the seventh century Quran(Othman's).See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss what Sahih Al Bukhari say in volume 6, Hadith # 109, page509-510.  They ask the following questions: Why would God chose a language (Arabic) that can not accommodate the Quran(no vowels or dots)? Why did God choose a man who couldn't read or write? If Mohammad was illiterate, he had 22 years to learn to read and write. Why didn't Abu Baker make more copies of the Quran? Was the Quran written down before Othman?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay continue their discussion on Shoemaker book; the creating of the Quran. While Wilfred Smith took the side of the religious person, the naturalistic approach takes the opposite side.  Shoemaker says that you need to not take either extreme by studying the impact on the believer and study the history.  Shoemaker points out 5 important approaches that Bruce Lincoln points out: 1.Who is the author of the text, his audience, context, and agenda? 2. Since reverence is religious, scholarly approach is more important. 3. Permit criticism but not the other( W. Smith said: Criticize Christianity but not Islam). 4. Assuming all cultures are stable, but the reality is not.  5. Be ware of the scholars informance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay continue their discussion on Shoemaker book; the creating of the Quran. While Wilfred Smith took the side of the religious person, the naturalistic approach takes the opposite side.  Shoemaker says that you need to not take either extreme by studying the impact on the believer and study the history.  Shoemaker points out 5 important approaches that Bruce Lincoln points out: 1.Who is the author of the text, his audience, context, and agenda? 2. Since reverence is religious, scholarly approach is more important. 3. Permit criticism but not the other( W. Smith said: Criticize Christianity but not Islam). 4. Assuming all cultures are stable, but the reality is not.  5. Be ware of the scholars informance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr, Jay Smith continue their discussion of Shoemaker book creating the Quran. Today they talk about how this censorship affected the department of defense. After world war two the west came up with a policy of not accepting any criticism of Islam .  Westerners and western academic Islamic scholars came up with a form of Islam to agree with western values. This form of Islam is not true to the historical Islam.  Shoemaker"s  solution to this problem is to do an accurate historical criticism of Islam.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue their discussion from last time on Shoemaker book Creating the Quran. This time they reveal the names of two scholars that were responsible for censoring what can be said about the Quran and Islam:  1. Wilfred Cantrell Smith; he gave the approach of how scholars should deal with Islamic material.  He concluded that if any valid understanding of the Quran, one must approach the text as a believing Muslim would, and seek to understand it on that basis.  2. Mircea Eliade from the university of Chicago.  These two scholars concluded that any study of Islam must be based on personal experience of Muslims.  In other words Muslims have to give their stamp of approval.  The problem with this approach is that it is not a true scholarly approach.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith are starting a new series based on a new book by Stephen Shoemaker called Creating the Quran.  Stephen says that Mohammad is the author of the Quran , and he is going against mainstream academics.  He says that we should not study the Quran according to later tradition ,but use standard tools of historical criticism that was used on other sacred scripture writings; ie The Bible.  There is a fear that critics and scholars have in stating their finding about the Quran . Shoemaker tells the name of the man behind the censorship.  Al and jay will reveal it on the next episode.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi shares his personal good news of his son getting married and a new grandchild is born . A bad news of losing his nephew. And a challenging news of his many back surgeries.  On the ministry level, the Lord showed up in mighty way: The production of many videos: A.  David Wood on the unholy character of Mohammad.  B. Historical criticism of Islam on art prohibition c. Sam Shamoun on the deity of Christ in the Quran.  D. Dr Jay Smith on the book, the man , and the place. These are few example.  You can watch all these videos on Cira international You-Tube. The views for these videos has reached over 13 million people. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.