Let Us Reason - A Christian/muslim Dialogue

Al and Jay use the book that Dr Daniel Brubaker has done on the preservation of the Quran.  They point out the different variants in the Qur'anic manuscripts that has been inserted, erased, covered and taped.  They conclude that the process of collecting the Quran was not standardized.  What is left behind after all the editing is the Hafs version of the Quran today. Al and Jay also talk about the 63 fragment of manuscripts that Muslims say it make up  97% of the Quran of the first century of Islam. Al and Jay say that 63 fragments do not comprise a complete Quran.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay talk about the discovery of the 33 verses from chapters 18-20 of the Quran which when it was discovered in 2015, Muslims thought that they found the Quran from the time of Muhammad.  These folios consist of three stories that existed before Islam and the Quran that was modified to take out the references to Jesus as God and replaced with Jesus as a prophet.  Al and Jay also talk about the Quran's Kiraat (variant readings). Jay talks about Hatun Tash  who discovered the many different copies of the Quran that does not match, and that was against  what Muslims claim about the preservation of the Quran.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi shares some of the reasons why we celebrate Christmas: 1. It is a reminder of the promise God made to Adam and Eve after the fall.  2. Because of God's love for us He gave us the greatest gift ever(Jesus)  3.  We have to accept the gift of Jesus by faith.  4. By believing in Jesus as the savior we go to heaven.  5.  By believing we have a direct communication with God.  6.  God became a man and dwelt amongst us.  7.  This is the greatest gift to mankind. God loved us while we were still sinners, and by believing in the gift and accepting it we have eternal life.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Quran was written in 652 AD, in the Quraishi dialect by Zaid ibn Thabit , Mohammad's secretary, After Mohammad's death.  There were no dots or other marks in that .Muslims say that Mohammad was given the Quran in 7 different Kira'at /dialects by Gabriel. Some of the Qurans are from Syria and Iraq and they all contain different numbers of Suras.  Looking at different manuscripts Jay and Ali and others conclude that none are from the 7th century, they had many variants that does not agree with the Hafs Quran, the most used version . The Question remains ; Where is the original Quran? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss the reasons that the Dome of the Rock debunk the S.I.N. According to the S.I.N. Mohammad was taken to the rock where he was ascended into heaven and came back in the year 621.  First the Dome of the Rock does not have a qibla, but the two mosques next to it do and are facing Petra.  They mention that the Dome of the Rock we have today was not the one built by Abd Al Malik.  The building itself was destroyed and rebuilt eleven times. In the second part of the episode they talk about the claim of preservation of the Quran by the Muslims. Jay says that the complete copy of the Quran was produced during Uthman the Calif . All Muslims had to do to back up the claim is to produce a copy of the manuscript from the time of Uthman and have them compare it with a Quran copy of today to see if it is a perfect match.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay say that there were no coins minted during the time of Mohammad 620- 660 AD in Mecca.  The coins found in that time period had Byzantian crosses or Zoroastrian temples on them and they were found in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. In 680 AD when Abd Al- Malik defeats the Byzantian ,  he introduces the Shahadah.  He was an anti trinitarian Christian. Mohammad's name was introduced on the coins during Abd- Al Malik reign in 710 AD.  The rock inscription were found in the 7th century, way north of Mecca between 640-740 AD. . None of the inscription was found in Mecca or Medina as the S.I.N. claims.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this episode of Let Us Reason, Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue their discussion on the rest of the stages of Hajj or the pilgrimage to Mecca.   They notice the progression of the narrative with time. For example they point out that before 1980 there was only one pillar to throw rocks at and now they have three.  Another rock they point to is the black stone which they say it turned black from white because it takes away the sins of the people. And finally they conclude the discussion about Mecca, is it really what we thought it is? Mecca as a city today was not mentioned in history until 741 A.D.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay ask the question; does any of the empires surrounding Mecca ever heard of it or had any trade reference to Mecca? The answer is none, no surrounding empires; for example the Sabean, the Nabatean, the Assyrian, the Babylonian or even the Romans ever referenced Mecca.  They also discuss some of the five stages of the Haj all of which involve stones:  1. The Ka'ba(cube), 2. Al Safa and Marwah (the S.I.N say that they are two mountains). 3.  The Jamarat . They discuss if these rituals are purely Islamic or were they borrowed from Judaism. The discussion will resume next time.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue the discussion from last time about the Red Sea route through Mecca .  Dr Patricia Crone debunked the land route theory and said that the route was through the Eastern side of the Red Sea coast. But history proves that the ships in the 2nd and 3rd century BC took the west coast of the red sea because of the five coastal cities that existed on the coast of Eretria, Sudan And Egypt. Also History shows that Jeddah was provided as a sea port to provide water for Mecca  and both cities did not exist until the 8th century AD.   Without Mecca there is no seventh century Islam( S.I.N.).  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith  say that Mohammad received a revelation to change the direction of the qiblas from Jerusalem to Al Masjed Al Haram (Al Kaaba) in the year 624 AD.  They use Dan Gibson's research and conclude that the direction of the Qiblas in mosques between 624-706 AD were facing Petra.- The first mosque with the qibla facing Mecca was in 724 AD. This is a bad evidence for the S.I.N.  They also discuss the trade route theory by Dr Montgomery Watt who suggested the trade route  went  through Mecca to Gaza . He was trying to prove that Mecca was on the trade route. Dr Patricia Crone tried to prove that Mecca was never on the trade route which went through the red sea closer to the African coast and not the Arabian coast.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

According to the standard Islamic narrative ; 70-300 prophets are buried in Mecca, from Adam,  Seth, Noah, Daniel, also Eve, and the Queen of Shiba just to name a few.  There is no archeological evidence of that. In the second episode of this show Al and Dr Jay ask the question, where is Mecca on any of the ancient maps? Dr Jay talks about the research of Dr Patricia Crone  on the subject of Mecca in ancient maps. They conclude that there is no mention of Mecca until the 8th century; a 100 years after the death of Mohammad.  Mecca was not the place the S.I.N. wants us to believe.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue their discussion about Mecca. This time they discuss Dan Gibson's archeological studies and the two books he wrote; The Nabateans, and The Geography of the Quran.    Next they ask the question ; What language was used in Mecca? They conclude that the Quran was written in Nabatean Aramaic and not in the Sabiac language of Mecca and Medina .  The question is why wasn't it written in the language of the area ( the Hijaz)?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay talk about why Mecca in the S.I.N. To Muslims Mecca is the birth place of Mohammad, where Islam started, where the pilgrimage takes place , and where they face towards when they pray.  Muslims claim three things: 1. It was where Adam and Eve lived. 2. Where Abraham built the Kaaba with his son Ishmael. 3. That Mecca was a center of trade. Al Fadi and Dr. Jay also say that the only place that mecca was mentioned by name was on Sura 48: 24.  Tradition also says that it was a place of vegetation and that it was located in a valley with a stream going through it.  Does history support these claims? they will talk about it in coming episodes.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Jay and Al Fadi continue their critique of the Standard Islamic Narrative(S.I.N.).  Today they are talking about the lack of reference evidence and of eyewitness. They point out that the S.I.N says that everything happened in Mecca and Medina.  It turned out that  the earliest resources were 200-300 years later during the Abbasid caliphate which came to power in 750 AD, in the city of Baghdad, written by people who lived hundred of miles north of Mecca and Medina. For example Ibn Hisham born in Basra, Iraq and lived in Cairo, Egypt;  Bukhari was born in Bukhara (Uzbekistan).  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay compare the time between Mohammad's death and the time the sources of Islam (the Sira, Hadith etc.) were written is over two hundred years and 200-300 miles north from the place that was thought.  While the time it took the Christian to write their sources is about 60 years and it was written in the same place where Christ lived and died while eyewitnesses lived.  They say if we compare it to the history of the United states, the biography of George Washington and the constitution would of not been written until the 21 century.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay continue to discuss the problem with the sources(Sira, hadith,...). They are questioning the Standard Islamic Narrative(S.I.N.).  They ask the question how do we know that it is true? Going back to the time when the people who wrote the sources lived and died ; they find a gap in the timeline. For example, there is a 200 year gap between the death of Mohammad and the death of Ibn Hisham; who wrote the Sira(Biography) of Mohammad; therefore he was not an eyewitness.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay Smith continue  their discussion by talking about the man (Mohammad), the book ( the Quran) and the place(Mecca), because these are the foundations of Islam if you take one out the rest will fall. 1. Mecca; did it exist in the 7th century?  2. Mohammad; was there a man who was born in Mecca in 570 AD and lived there until 622AD, who then moved to Medina?  3. The Quran; do we have a complete copy from the 7th century that matches today's copy.  These are questions Dr. Jay and Al Fadi are trying to answer. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss what is The Standard Islamic Narrative or S.I.N.  Muslims believe that they have the final revelation; the Quran which was revealed to Mohammad, who was born in Mecca in Saudi Arabia and that Mecca was the direction of the Kiblah.  There are four points of the S.I.N./ the traditions: 1. The Cira (The biography of Mohammad) . 2. The Hadith (the sayings of Mohammad)  3. Al Tafsir (the commentaries) to unpack the Quran, 4. The Tarikh(the history).  Muslims can not question the traditions even if does not make sense.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sister Ray grew up in South Africa to an Iranian Sunni family. Her mother was a Catholic that converted to Islam.  She went to an all girls Catholic school, and was also raised in the traditional Islamic belief.  She did start questioning her Islamic belief when she went to university and started reading Islamic books in English.  She was upset about the way women are treated in Islam, unlike what she has been taught that Islam raised the value of women.  She met a born again Christian in college and he invited her to go to church.  The sermon was about Moses.  She was asked by her Muslim people not to watch the Disney movie "The Prince of Egypt". Ray's journey continues next time.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lloyd explains that Islam is a deen, which does not mean a religion but a totalitarian political system, which provides perspective on existence, life, society and sociopolitical system. There is 4 meanings of deen: 1. Subjugation and dominance.  2. Obedience and bondage. 3. Rules and regulations. 4. Rewards and repayment.  There are two sources of the law(Sharia). A. The Quran . B. The Sunna.  Lloyd goes into details to explain all of the above.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.